Turned down for mission, now a stripper.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

So much anti stuff on here.....I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church.

I am so glad you didn't say,

I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church gospel restored of Jesus Christ.

There is a difference, so why not stand up against institutions that back false traditions and teach for doctrines the philosophies of men? Is not such a stand doctrinal? Did not the very Christ do just this, stand up to the institution of his time of his mortal ministry claiming to own the gospel truth?

[BrotherOfMahonri]

Shadow,
Ideally, yes the mission is for those prepared and perfect.
But in reality, there are young, ignorant, naive young adults who must go through extensive mind control training to convince others that THEIR mind control is better than any others out there.
They are trained to NOT listen and - but are trained to ignore any testimony that conflicts with their mind control, even when it is a gift of truth offered to them. I saw this when I went on splits and it was the deciding factor for not serving a mission. I wanted to be as prepared as possible - I studied other religions so I'd be able to relate with investigators, I studied and prayed and did all I could to prepare myself, but ultimately I could not, in good conscience, prepare myself to systematically ignore others' truths while insisting on perpetuating mind control that was in several ways, misguiding.

Still, I realize that there are various steps of illusion and truth and helpers in each stage are needed. I honor and respect the good missionaries do in bringing people closer to God, and GOoD. But I also see skme flaws in the way missionaries are trained - and how the church is missing the mark by insisting on book knowledge while neglecting the spirit of the law - love above all.

More feeble excuses for not serving as the Lord has asked... Just keep telling yourself you were just following your "conscience" thinker by not serving a mission. Maybe someday you will actually talk yourself into believing it. Rationalization is a wonderful thing. :ymparty:

And here we have the exact evidence and proof of what spirit is being followed in such a "loving" and "beautifully Christ Like" response from Mark the missionary. I am not sure I would want such a missionary as this in my home with my wife and children attempting to force the true gospel down our throats. Such a magic show to protect a brand and condemn a fellow brother or sister is not the gospel restored I know and love, nor of the God who gave it to us.

[Mark]

So much anti stuff on here.....I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church.

Don't be surprised Melissa. It will only get worse as time draws nearer to the redemption of Zion. Those who turn their backs from the Lords earthly kingdom will only become more hardened and rebellious. Just the nature of the beast I guess..

[shadow]

This is awesome and entertaining.
It's the damned if you do, damned if you don't principle found on this site.
Accuse the SP of unrighteous dominion for not allowing an obvious unprepared person to serve a mission at that point in time, and then slam the church for controlling the minds of the youth who want to serve a mission. It's what the Aussie dude would call "rich".

[BrotherOfMahonri]

So much anti stuff on here.....I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church.

Don't be surprised Melissa. It will only get worse as time draws nearer to the redemption of Zion. Those who turn their backs from the Lords earthly kingdom will only become more hardened and rebellious. Just the nature of the beast I guess..

Wow... Lehi would disagree with you I believe. He turned his back on the quote unquote "Lord's earthly kingdom" at least that's what they thought it was in Jerusalem. Let's not forget the very Christ in his earthly ministry, killed by the members of the supposed Lord's earthly Kingdom. Wow.

[Mark]

Shadow,
Ideally, yes the mission is for those prepared and perfect.
But in reality, there are young, ignorant, naive young adults who must go through extensive mind control training to convince others that THEIR mind control is better than any others out there.
They are trained to NOT listen and - but are trained to ignore any testimony that conflicts with their mind control, even when it is a gift of truth offered to them. I saw this when I went on splits and it was the deciding factor for not serving a mission. I wanted to be as prepared as possible - I studied other religions so I'd be able to relate with investigators, I studied and prayed and did all I could to prepare myself, but ultimately I could not, in good conscience, prepare myself to systematically ignore others' truths while insisting on perpetuating mind control that was in several ways, misguiding.

Still, I realize that there are various steps of illusion and truth and helpers in each stage are needed. I honor and respect the good missionaries do in bringing people closer to God, and GOoD. But I also see skme flaws in the way missionaries are trained - and how the church is missing the mark by insisting on book knowledge while neglecting the spirit of the law - love above all.

More feeble excuses for not serving as the Lord has asked... Just keep telling yourself you were just following your "conscience" thinker by not serving a mission. Maybe someday you will actually talk yourself into believing it. Rationalization is a wonderful thing. :ymparty:

And here we have the exact evidence and proof of what spirit is being followed in such a "loving" and "beautifully Christ Like" response from Mark the missionary. I am not sure I would want such a missionary as this in my home with my wife and children attempting to force the true gospel down our throats. Such a magic show to protect a brand and condemn a fellow brother or sister is not the gospel restored I know and love, nor of the God who gave it to us.

Stop with the self righteous martyr complex games already Bro! Time to grow up and quit playing that pathetic card. Be a man and admit your rebellious spirit and come back to the fold with some humility and a repentant spirit. You will be glad you did!

[BrotherOfMahonri]

This is awesome and entertaining.
It's the damned if you do, damned if you don't principle found on this site.
Accuse the SP of unrighteous dominion for not allowing an obvious unprepared person to serve a mission at that point in time, and then slam the church for controlling the minds of the youth who want to serve a mission. It's what the Aussie dude would call "rich".

Was it God that told you "This is awesome and entertaining"? How about prayerfully asking how to bless the lives of those you think are lost and fallen rather than adhere to your own version of righteousness? Where are your Heavenly Inspired questions... still no questions... That's what they actually teach now (a positive) in the new missionary teaching manual - Heavenly Inspired Questions.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

Shadow,
Ideally, yes the mission is for those prepared and perfect.
But in reality, there are young, ignorant, naive young adults who must go through extensive mind control training to convince others that THEIR mind control is better than any others out there.
They are trained to NOT listen and - but are trained to ignore any testimony that conflicts with their mind control, even when it is a gift of truth offered to them. I saw this when I went on splits and it was the deciding factor for not serving a mission. I wanted to be as prepared as possible - I studied other religions so I'd be able to relate with investigators, I studied and prayed and did all I could to prepare myself, but ultimately I could not, in good conscience, prepare myself to systematically ignore others' truths while insisting on perpetuating mind control that was in several ways, misguiding.

Still, I realize that there are various steps of illusion and truth and helpers in each stage are needed. I honor and respect the good missionaries do in bringing people closer to God, and GOoD. But I also see skme flaws in the way missionaries are trained - and how the church is missing the mark by insisting on book knowledge while neglecting the spirit of the law - love above all.

More feeble excuses for not serving as the Lord has asked... Just keep telling yourself you were just following your "conscience" thinker by not serving a mission. Maybe someday you will actually talk yourself into believing it. Rationalization is a wonderful thing. :ymparty:

And here we have the exact evidence and proof of what spirit is being followed in such a "loving" and "beautifully Christ Like" response from Mark the missionary. I am not sure I would want such a missionary as this in my home with my wife and children attempting to force the true gospel down our throats. Such a magic show to protect a brand and condemn a fellow brother or sister is not the gospel restored I know and love, nor of the God who gave it to us.

Stop with the self righteous martyr complex games already Bro! Time to grow up and quit playing that pathetic card. Be a man and admit your rebellious spirit and come back to the fold with some humility and a repentant spirit. You will be glad you did!

So you do not deny it then. Thank you.

God humbles me where I need be humbled. I do wonder however who tried to say things like you just did to me to Lehi, Nephi, Samuel, Alma Sr/Jr, etc... When does one know what God is telling them and trusts it over the weak counsel and pride of their fellow saints?

If it were self righteous "bro" then I indeed trust God and ask him constantly, even in writing these things to humble me, as it is often his spirit prompting me to speak up in defense of the lack of love you just heaped at someone you obviously failed to keep the two greatest commandments with. So "bro", quit being so heartless and learn to love and let Heaven inspire some questions rather than state one's standing before almighty God - that is unrighteous dominion through and through - Amen to such. Amen and Amen. Truth hurts and I see you are hurt and the abusers rarely recognize their own abuse.

[Melissa]

So much anti stuff on here.....I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church.

Don't be surprised Melissa. It will only get worse as time draws nearer to the redemption of Zion. Those who turn their backs from the Lords earthly kingdom will only become more hardened and rebellious. Just the nature of the beast I guess..

Wow... Lehi would disagree with you I believe. He turned his back on the quote unquote "Lord's earthly kingdom" at least that's what they thought it was in Jerusalem. Let's not forget the very Christ in his earthly ministry, killed by the members of the supposed Lord's earthly Kingdom. Wow.

It seems the church is scattering instead of gathering.
Like any disagreements....point out the faults and the argument escalates towards division.

If all the people who left the church for supposed higher ways of Christ were gathering and building Zion then there might be somewhat of a point to all this rebellion and higher than thou mentality going on by those who use the ways of old to justify their abandonment of the only "organization" where saving ordinances can be found.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

So much anti stuff on here.....I find it amazing how many people are standing up against the church.

Don't be surprised Melissa. It will only get worse as time draws nearer to the redemption of Zion. Those who turn their backs from the Lords earthly kingdom will only become more hardened and rebellious. Just the nature of the beast I guess..

Wow... Lehi would disagree with you I believe. He turned his back on the quote unquote "Lord's earthly kingdom" at least that's what they thought it was in Jerusalem. Let's not forget the very Christ in his earthly ministry, killed by the members of the supposed Lord's earthly Kingdom. Wow.

It seems the church is scattering instead of gathering.
Like any disagreements....point out the faults and the argument escalates towards division.

If all the people who left the church for supposed higher ways of Christ were gathering and building Zion then there might be somewhat of a point to all this rebellion and higher than thou mentality going on by those who use the ways of old to justify their abandonment of the only "organization" where saving ordinances can be found.

I agree with you, so my question and invite to you and all of us is to ponder upon it, ask God in your own family to be your God and only guide, and to live the commandment to have no idols of worship that one must now sustain "an oath like sustaining (Elder Nelson)" to be found worthy to approach God in his temples.

[Melissa]

Don't be surprised Melissa. It will only get worse as time draws nearer to the redemption of Zion. Those who turn their backs from the Lords earthly kingdom will only become more hardened and rebellious. Just the nature of the beast I guess..

Wow... Lehi would disagree with you I believe. He turned his back on the quote unquote "Lord's earthly kingdom" at least that's what they thought it was in Jerusalem. Let's not forget the very Christ in his earthly ministry, killed by the members of the supposed Lord's earthly Kingdom. Wow.

It seems the church is scattering instead of gathering.
Like any disagreements....point out the faults and the argument escalates towards division.

If all the people who left the church for supposed higher ways of Christ were gathering and building Zion then there might be somewhat of a point to all this rebellion and higher than thou mentality going on by those who use the ways of old to justify their abandonment of the only "organization" where saving ordinances can be found.

I agree with you, so my question and invite to you and all of us is to ponder upon it, ask God in your own family to be your God and only guide, and to live the commandment to have no idols of worship that one must now sustain "an oath like sustaining (Elder Nelson)" to be found worthy to approach God in his temples.

Honestly I kinda thought that was the idea all along. Have God as your guide and focus, and do as Jesus has asked us to do. To live unselfishly and live for purposes higher than than what the world has to offer.

If someone is honestly following Elder (anybody) and not following God, then I hope they will look past any and all men this world has to offer and find the real true source of life, God.

Be sure you and others do not assume that if someone stays in the church and defends it, likes everything the church does and/or follows ANY man.

There is a way to do and live as you have stated and still sustain a man as a prophet and apostle.

I wonder how far this will go....will the division be so great that the ones mocking from the building are disenfranchised members of His church? It will begin in his house.....!

BofM, I like you. I think you are a good man and have good morals and standards- and you think and follow your passions (harder to find these days). I will always respect that! I find us agreeing more than not

[BrotherOfMahonri]

What's obvious to me with people like yourself is sincerity for sure, something rare in my experience of about 25 conscious years as an active LDS member myself.

Honestly I kinda thought that was the idea all along. Have God as your guide and focus, and do as Jesus has asked us to do. To live unselfishly and live for purposes higher than than what the world has to offer.
Agreed. Two greatest commandments for sure.

If someone is honestly following Elder (anybody) and not following God, then I hope they will look past any and all men this world has to offer and find the real true source of life, God.

Be sure you and others do not assume that if someone stays in the church and defends it, likes everything the church does and/or follows ANY man.
Yes. It may surprise some to know that we are prayerfully asking God to lead us back to church if that is where he wants us, but so far his direct, loving, soft and gentle answer for us alone is we are where he wants us right now, and that is home as a family.

I love when LDS neighbors have the love and courage enough to come even talk to us now - as they have all but disappeared due to whatever rumors instantly circulated from whatever meeting occurred in the ward when we resigned, as our communications were completely private with bishopric members and stake presidency members, so to have neighbors without callings, EQ pres, and others disappear completely was either because they are completely afraid and do not know what to do with us now per the bishop's warning or words (which is opposite the gospel I know where we are to have an answer for anyone who asks and are not to fear sincere questions and seekers) or they don't associate with resigned members.


One of the closest friends I have right now in life is an active LDS member, but he gets it entirely and has taken upon himself per God's working in his heart to defy the false traditions while continuing being active LDS. I admire that entirely. He sustains the brethren as I sustain them. I sustaining the brethren in their callings, and have done much work to prove such, where I do not sustain them is where I haven't the witness we are supposed to have as to their being Seers and Revelators (two very heavy burdens that come with fruits I am not finding as of yet).

I know you and others would find, befriend our family sincerely, that we are more friendly than most Latter Day Saints, and I dare say have the gospel in our incomings and outgoings more than most latter day saints. So again, I don't assume you and anyone else likes everything the church does, in fact I know that most dont, and on top of that, most don't have an outlet to talk about real issues they are keeping inside or within small circles, no thanks to some false traditions that are in any institution wherein man has influence.




There is a way to do and live as you have stated and still sustain a man as a prophet and apostle.
Yes! Thanks for pointing that out. That however is where we might differ. I grew up believing they were, as that is what we were taught. I didn't need to know Christ lived, he has been a part of my life since I was coherent enough to think and know I was thinking. However for me I had a shift in my life, per the Lord's answering my prayers and heart's sincerest of questions, in that I used to be the person who stated the most of anyone, "The Church is True" - esp. when some strange thing was done by a leader... that was in error for me to state such as it is now more correctly stated to be, "The Gospel Restored of Jesus Christ is True". Again, seeking a witness of those claiming to be Seers and Revelators (seership is quite the gift next to the power of God) - I am on a journey and finding beautiful truths that are freeing to the soul, as God gives us line upon line, here a little there a little - freedom in truth that for us, could not be found while under whatever control exists for good or ill in the church.



I wonder how far this will go....will the division be so great that the ones mocking from the building are disenfranchised members of His church? It will begin in his house.....!

That is the irony. Can you step to the other side of such a scenario you just laid out?

Imagine if you will, my wife, myself, and children, making our way to the tree of life - as members of the LDS church in their fine sunday best point fingers of scorn at us from one of the most great and spacious buildings in the west coast, the conference center - as we take the road less travelled towards Christ and the Love of God (tree of life)... kinda a scary thought isn't it - have you considered this viewpoint ever? are you willing to consider it now that I'm sharing it?

I don't try to lay blame or say is accurate, but scary none the less to think that the Conference Center is great and spacious if any building on earth is great and spacious, even has a little stream that flows in front of it by the dirty SLC street, and fountain flowing from the head thereof, not to mention it's many corridors, levels, height, and size... and many active, dressed in fine twined linen latter day saints point their fingers at people like us, and mock them while they think they are saved and on the right path (I mean come on, we both maybe agree that this vision isn't meant for non-believers as much as it is for those reading the BOM). mocking them as they have discovered this straight and narrow course which is not quite as the brethren have painted it out to be, which is leading to the Love of God (key in this, to the Love of God - look at what most active saints on this forum do, lacking love entirely, to people like my sweet family.)

Something to consider as an alternative to your suggestion of this vision of Lehi's...

BofM, I like you. I think you are a good man and have good morals and standards- and you think and follow your passions (harder to find these days). I will always respect that! I find us agreeing more than not
^^^ which is why I respond openly to people like you, because the spirit easily shows us the love behind your intents, esp. when we disagree. I hope you can feel that is why we are sharing our passions and standards, and why we find ourselves agreeing more often than not as it doesn't matter to me and I might add to the Almighty God whether you are active LDS or not - as if you have charity towards your fellow mankind you are something more than most on earth and so far this charity I feel God has given me in my heart, which charity I ask daily to be filled with in my interactions here and elsewhere - is found more often in non-members I meet than with active LDS - a sad truth and fact so far in my journeyings amongst the Latter Day Saints here in Utah Happy Valley.

We as latter day saints need to quit fearing to consider that the Book of Mormon was written to warn Latter Day Saints of their own follies... AS THE TREE OF LIFE IS NOT THE GOSPEL RESTORED NOR THE CHURCH BUT IS THE LOVE OF GOD. If the iron rod leads us to the great and spacious building with men and women in fine apparel in the attitude of mocking those humble followers of Christ who no longer belong to their "club" we ought to consider if our Iron Rod interpretation is coming from other men or from the tree of life (Love of God), but if the rod of iron leads you to the Love of God rather than some building where all are dressed in fine apparel then you and I are on the right path.

[Jason]

Iron rod is the Word of God - I.e. Commandments and instructions (mostly through covenants) most often revealed through His servants the prophets and apostles via the structure and chain of command established by Christ and restored this final time through Joseph Smith.

Both recorded history of past commandments and guidance (scriptures) and current guidance (living prophet).

Hence the great weight placed upon authority...who are the Lord's chosen servants and vessels of the Holy Priesthood keys for those necessary and requisite covenants and ordinances....as well as the most current daily guidance for the challenges faced today...and what tomorrow will most certainly bring.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

Iron rod is the Word of God - I.e. Commandments and instructions (mostly through covenants) Not quite - the "Word" of God is Christ my friend, not laws and ordinances contained in the "word" of God most often revealed through His servants the prophets and apostles via the structure and chain of command established by Christ and restored this final time through Joseph Smith. Yes, by chain of command you mean from God to man, not necessarily from man to man excepting rightful authority instead of confusing authority (enter Brigham).

Both recorded history of past commandments and guidance (scriptures) and current guidance (living prophet). Irony still exists that Lehi doesn't fit your version of chain of command, nor does Christ himself - but establishes a different chain of command, namely God is not limited to man's control of authority and his church or gospel.

Hence the great weight placed upon authority...who are the Lord's chosen servants and vessels of the Holy Priesthood keys for those necessary and requisite covenants and ordinances.... Again, Lehi is quite the exception to your point here but also proves greatly the opposite of yoru point... oh the need for personal revelation to the open heart eh?as well as the most current daily guidance for the challenges faced today...and what tomorrow will most certainly bring.

But what you haven't addressed is the glaring fact that Lehi was a "rogue" saint to those of his time - who found the Tree of Life (love of God) and it seems that most the people arriving at the tree with him were unknowns to him entirely excepting his family. He was not in line with the brethren of his time, neither was Christ himself.

I'm simply suggesting the child like simplicity of the fact that the tree of life being the Love of God and that the Iron Rod does not lead to some church, spacious building, conference center, man-prophet or otherwise whatsoever, but it leads entirely to the Love of God - suggesting to this simple mind and heart of mine that we ought not over complexity things and realize that if we have taken the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the word of God (Scripture) as our Iron Rod we will come to the Love of God, which seems to be the key in the dream as far as where the gospel should lead one - and it definitely does not mention anything about man-prophets excepting Lehi, the rogue prophet from the body of Jerusalem-day Saints which is quite different a prophet than what the brethren claim to be.

To repeat.

Lehi, a loner amongst the saints of his time, found the voice of God where it seems almost all other established leaders of his time missed it entirely. Dream suggests the same, being a loner on his journey to the tree of life (love of God). Suggests powerfully that the point of the Word and word of God is to come to his love, not to some authority of man. Dream even suggests that following a man in a white robe leads one to mists of darkness being lost - Lehi finds the Love of God maybe instead of the organized man-made building on the other side where who else would mock Lehi but those in the "church" wearing fine apparel and obviously had succomed to what Nephi is told by the spirit is a representation of the "pride of the world."

I don't know many non-LDS that mock the LDS, more than I know many LDS that mock people as myself for sincerely seeking and sharing as a gleeful child the fruits and freedom the pure gospel restored through a real prophet Joseph Smith, who never practiced polygamy (an glaring fruit of current prophets and seers and their error and leanings upon man-counsel) affords us all once we let go of the fear of being damned for not adhering to man's counsel, but fearing God's counsel (Joseph Smith's lesson with Martin Harris) and hearing his voice over all others.

Not to forget Laman and Lemuel who were seen at the head of the river and wouldn't come to the Love of God, and we can reflect back when they both complained how the people in Jerusalem were righteous and being judged by their father Lehi... sounds all too familiar.

[Jason]

Iron rod is the Word of God - I.e. Commandments and instructions (mostly through covenants) Not quite - the "Word" of God is Christ my friend, not laws and ordinances contained in the "word" of God most often revealed through His servants the prophets and apostles via the structure and chain of command established by Christ and restored this final time through Joseph Smith. Yes, by chain of command you mean from God to man, not necessarily from man to man excepting rightful authority instead of confusing authority (enter Brigham).

Both recorded history of past commandments and guidance (scriptures) and current guidance (living prophet). Irony still exists that Lehi doesn't fit your version of chain of command, nor does Christ himself - but establishes a different chain of command, namely God is not limited to man's control of authority and his church or gospel.

Hence the great weight placed upon authority...who are the Lord's chosen servants and vessels of the Holy Priesthood keys for those necessary and requisite covenants and ordinances.... Again, Lehi is quite the exception to your point here but also proves greatly the opposite of yoru point... oh the need for personal revelation to the open heart eh?as well as the most current daily guidance for the challenges faced today...and what tomorrow will most certainly bring.

But what you haven't addressed is the glaring fact that Lehi was a "rogue" saint to those of his time - who found the Tree of Life (love of God) and it seems that most the people arriving at the tree with him were unknowns to him entirely excepting his family. He was not in line with the brethren of his time, neither was Christ himself.

I'm simply suggesting the child like simplicity of the fact that the tree of life being the Love of God and that the Iron Rod does not lead to some church, spacious building, conference center, man-prophet or otherwise whatsoever, but it leads entirely to the Love of God - suggesting to this simple mind and heart of mine that we ought not over complexity things and realize that if we have taken the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the word of God (Scripture) as our Iron Rod we will come to the Love of God, which seems to be the key in the dream as far as where the gospel should lead one - and it definitely does not mention anything about man-prophets excepting Lehi, the rogue prophet from the body of Jerusalem-day Saints which is quite different a prophet than what the brethren claim to be.

To repeat.

Lehi, a loner amongst the saints of his time, found the voice of God where it seems almost all other established leaders of his time missed it entirely. Dream suggests the same, being a loner on his journey to the tree of life (love of God). Suggests powerfully that the point of the Word and word of God is to come to his love, not to some authority of man. Dream even suggests that following a man in a white robe leads one to mists of darkness being lost - Lehi finds the Love of God maybe instead of the organized man-made building on the other side where who else would mock Lehi but those in the "church" wearing fine apparel and obviously had succomed to what Nephi is told by the spirit is a representation of the "pride of the world."

I don't know many non-LDS that mock the LDS, more than I know many LDS that mock people as myself for sincerely seeking and sharing as a gleeful child the fruits and freedom the pure gospel restored through a real prophet Joseph Smith, who never practiced polygamy (an glaring fruit of current prophets and seers and their error and leanings upon man-counsel) affords us all once we let go of the fear of being damned for not adhering to man's counsel, but fearing God's counsel (Joseph Smith's lesson with Martin Harris) and hearing his voice over all others.

Not to forget Laman and Lemuel who were seen at the head of the river and wouldn't come to the Love of God, and we can reflect back when they both complained how the people in Jerusalem were righteous and being judged by their father Lehi... sounds all too familiar.

Agree to disagree

[iWriteStuff]

But what you haven't addressed is the glaring fact that Lehi was a "rogue" saint to those of his time - who found the Tree of Life (love of God) and it seems that most the people arriving at the tree with him were unknowns to him entirely excepting his family. He was not in line with the brethren of his time, neither was Christ himself.

I'm simply suggesting the child like simplicity of the fact that the tree of life being the Love of God and that the Iron Rod does not lead to some church, spacious building, conference center, man-prophet or otherwise whatsoever, but it leads entirely to the Love of God - suggesting to this simple mind and heart of mine that we ought not over complexity things and realize that if we have taken the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the word of God (Scripture) as our Iron Rod we will come to the Love of God, which seems to be the key in the dream as far as where the gospel should lead one - and it definitely does not mention anything about man-prophets excepting Lehi, the rogue prophet from the body of Jerusalem-day Saints which is quite different a prophet than what the brethren claim to be.

To repeat.

Lehi, a loner amongst the saints of his time, found the voice of God where it seems almost all other established leaders of his time missed it entirely. Dream suggests the same, being a loner on his journey to the tree of life (love of God). Suggests powerfully that the point of the Word and word of God is to come to his love, not to some authority of man. Dream even suggests that following a man in a white robe leads one to mists of darkness being lost - Lehi finds the Love of God maybe instead of the organized man-made building on the other side where who else would mock Lehi but those in the "church" wearing fine apparel and obviously had succomed to what Nephi is told by the spirit is a representation of the "pride of the world."

I don't know many non-LDS that mock the LDS, more than I know many LDS that mock people as myself for sincerely seeking and sharing as a gleeful child the fruits and freedom the pure gospel restored through a real prophet Joseph Smith, who never practiced polygamy (an glaring fruit of current prophets and seers and their error and leanings upon man-counsel) affords us all once we let go of the fear of being damned for not adhering to man's counsel, but fearing God's counsel (Joseph Smith's lesson with Martin Harris) and hearing his voice over all others.

Not to forget Laman and Lemuel who were seen at the head of the river and wouldn't come to the Love of God, and we can reflect back when they both complained how the people in Jerusalem were righteous and being judged by their father Lehi... sounds all too familiar.

Agree to disagree

Funny, Jeremiah was a prophet/saint of his time, too. The Jews of his day rejected the established prophet of the Lord, not unlike they rejected Lehi. Seems the saints weren't saints, but rejected the saints, cast them out, imprisoned them, attempted to kill them, etc:

1 Ne. 7:14
14 For behold, the Spirit of the Lord ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have rejected the prophets, and Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land.

It would appear your intent is to liken the current membership of the church to murderous apostates, yet you're the one who rejects the prophets and cast the church out of your home.

Irony indeed.

[Ezra]

Nephi didn't (follow the prophet) to the tree of life either. He went off on his own and prayed to know the truth of it.

When I hear the follow the prophet that's what I understand it to mean.

You make the path your own. You don't blindly follow. You have your eyes wide open looking around learning and growing to understand why that's the path.

You listen to the prophet. But on the scale of things. He might be so far ahead of you you can't see him on the path. Or you might be ahead only God knows. Either way our own personal spiritual connection and guide is the most important thing you have to keeping you on the path.

[Jason]

Nephi didn't (follow the prophet) to the tree of life either. He went off on his own and prayed to know the truth of it.

When I hear the follow the prophet that's what I understand it to mean.

You make the path your own. You don't blindly follow. You have your eyes wide open looking around learning and growing to understand why that's the path.

You listen to the prophet. But on the scale of things. He might be so far ahead of you you can't see him on the path. Or you might be ahead only God knows. Either way our own personal spiritual connection and guide is the most important thing you have to keeping you on the path.

The key is staying close to the Spirit and not being deceived...even by spirits appearing as angels of light.

And not becoming a law unto ourselves...but abiding by God's law and direction.

[Fiannan]

I would add to Kennedy's statement spirituality is chained by conformity as well.

Our prophets of the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the early days of the Church were non-conformists. I believe we need to be less suspicious of the non-conformists or we will push them out of the Church and lose the spark that can keep the fire alive in the latter days.

I have seen too many non-conformists pushed out. I get the idea from just listening to the interview that this gal was probably not a quiet and docile young women when she was active in the Church and desired to go on a mission. I am raising my children to question everybody, even the Church when policies are based on culture rather than scripture. A short time ago two of my daughters attended an LDS youth conference and some of the young women they met were talking about having gotten their first tattoos. My daughters have been taught this is no big deal but if they want to have something like that they have to wait until they are 18. Needless to say they trust leaders of the Church in doctrinal matters and question everything they see on TV. They often note that most people are really stupid and that Freud was correct. One is thinking of going into marketing like her older brother.

[samizdat]

Iron rod is the Word of God - I.e. Commandments and instructions (mostly through covenants) Not quite - the "Word" of God is Christ my friend, not laws and ordinances contained in the "word" of God most often revealed through His servants the prophets and apostles via the structure and chain of command established by Christ and restored this final time through Joseph Smith. Yes, by chain of command you mean from God to man, not necessarily from man to man excepting rightful authority instead of confusing authority (enter Brigham).

Both recorded history of past commandments and guidance (scriptures) and current guidance (living prophet). Irony still exists that Lehi doesn't fit your version of chain of command, nor does Christ himself - but establishes a different chain of command, namely God is not limited to man's control of authority and his church or gospel.

Hence the great weight placed upon authority...who are the Lord's chosen servants and vessels of the Holy Priesthood keys for those necessary and requisite covenants and ordinances.... Again, Lehi is quite the exception to your point here but also proves greatly the opposite of yoru point... oh the need for personal revelation to the open heart eh?as well as the most current daily guidance for the challenges faced today...and what tomorrow will most certainly bring.

But what you haven't addressed is the glaring fact that Lehi was a "rogue" saint to those of his time - who found the Tree of Life (love of God) and it seems that most the people arriving at the tree with him were unknowns to him entirely excepting his family. He was not in line with the brethren of his time, neither was Christ himself.

Lehi was still well within line of what the Church (being rejected by the populace as a whole) was at the time, as was Christ (who always made sure that the people that he healed, be brought up before the authorities of the time to declare their cleanliness). He was more in line with a Jeremiah, a Daniel, or an Ezekiel (who were all being rejected by the inhabitants of Jerusalem).

I'm simply suggesting the child like simplicity of the fact that the tree of life being the Love of God and that the Iron Rod does not lead to some church, spacious building, conference center, man-prophet or otherwise whatsoever, but it leads entirely to the Love of God - suggesting to this simple mind and heart of mine that we ought not over complexity things and realize that if we have taken the Word of God (Jesus Christ) and the word of God (Scripture) as our Iron Rod we will come to the Love of God, which seems to be the key in the dream as far as where the gospel should lead one - and it definitely does not mention anything about man-prophets excepting Lehi, the rogue prophet from the body of Jerusalem-day Saints which is quite different a prophet than what the brethren claim to be.

I have no problem with this interpretation. In the end the Iron Rod DOES represent the love of God for us. However, it does lead specifically through that path that Christ would have us take, that is, the Scriptures, the Laws, the Ordinances, the Prophets, etc.

To repeat.

Lehi, a loner amongst the saints of his time, found the voice of God where it seems almost all other established leaders of his time missed it entirely. Dream suggests the same, being a loner on his journey to the tree of life (love of God). Suggests powerfully that the point of the Word and word of God is to come to his love, not to some authority of man. Dream even suggests that following a man in a white robe leads one to mists of darkness being lost - Lehi finds the Love of God maybe instead of the organized man-made building on the other side where who else would mock Lehi but those in the "church" wearing fine apparel and obviously had succomed to what Nephi is told by the spirit is a representation of the "pride of the world."

I don't know many non-LDS that mock the LDS, more than I know many LDS that mock people as myself for sincerely seeking and sharing as a gleeful child the fruits and freedom the pure gospel restored through a real prophet Joseph Smith, who never practiced polygamy (an glaring fruit of current prophets and seers and their error and leanings upon man-counsel) affords us all once we let go of the fear of being damned for not adhering to man's counsel, but fearing God's counsel (Joseph Smith's lesson with Martin Harris) and hearing his voice over all others. You sir obviously haven't been out that much.

Not to forget Laman and Lemuel who were seen at the head of the river and wouldn't come to the Love of God, and we can reflect back when they both complained how the people in Jerusalem were righteous and being judged by their father Lehi... sounds all too familiar.

Unfortunately, in your efforts to simplify the Gospel (an admirable task to be sure) you have missed the mark entirely. You speak as someone who lives in Utah County, the most Mormon of the Mormon counties in Utah. Leave Utah and you will see how Mormons are mocked by non-Mormons, quite a few of them.

[Thinker]

BrotherOfMahonri,
Thanks for sharing your insights, many of which I felt the spirit while reading.
You remind me what I want to do to prepare my kids.
My son wants to serve a mission - I had drilled it into him for formidable years of his life & of course enormous peer pressure.
If he does, I told him that I expect him to put love above all - and if there are questionable teachings, ask his companion to teach them. He is very smart and personable, so I think he could have a lot of positive influences - even among the toughest (Atheist) crowds.
I trust in God - and hopefully my kids will too.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
Ideally, yes the mission is for those prepared and perfect.
But in reality, there are young, ignorant, naive young adults who must go through extensive mind control training to convince others that THEIR mind control is better than any others out there.
They are trained to NOT listen and - but are trained to ignore any testimony that conflicts with their mind control, even when it is a gift of truth offered to them. I saw this when I went on splits and it was the deciding factor for not serving a mission. I wanted to be as prepared as possible - I studied other religions so I'd be able to relate with investigators, I studied and prayed and did all I could to prepare myself, but ultimately I could not, in good conscience, prepare myself to systematically ignore others' truths while insisting on perpetuating mind control that was in several ways, misguiding.

Still, I realize that there are various steps of illusion and truth and helpers in each stage are needed. I honor and respect the good missionaries do in bringing people closer to God, and GOoD. But I also see skme flaws in the way missionaries are trained - and how the church is missing the mark by insisting on book knowledge while neglecting the spirit of the law - love above all.

More feeble excuses for not serving as the Lord has asked... Just keep telling yourself you were just following your "conscience" thinker by not serving a mission. Maybe someday you will actually talk yourself into believing it. Rationalization is a wonderful thing. :ymparty:

Mark,
There are times when you have hit upon some underlying truth - but this not one of those times.
I wasn't meant to serve an lds mission - it wasn't God's will. I had other ways of serving - and am still serving as a mother.
I'm not perfect, but I have been blessed to be in many types of service through my adult years - some of them very challenging, but I sensed that I was exactly where God wanted me to be to help as I have.

An lds mission may have been right for you - and for others, but it wasn't right for me.
Serving as I have may have been right for me - but not for you or others.
We each have our own gifts and talents - like the parable of the body of Christ - don't shun the feet just because they are way down there - how would you move so easily if you didn't have them?

[Thinker]

I would add to Kennedy's statement spirituality is chained by conformity as well.

Our prophets of the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the early days of the Church were non-conformists. I believe we need to be less suspicious of the non-conformists or we will push them out of the Church and lose the spark that can keep the fire alive in the latter days.

I have seen too many non-conformists pushed out. I get the idea from just listening to the interview that this gal was probably not a quiet and docile young women when she was active in the Church and desired to go on a mission. I am raising my children to question everybody, even the Church when policies are based on culture rather than scripture...

Well put, Fiannan!
Jesus surely was a non-conformist - and was harassed and killed for it.
I'm not suggesting that all conforming teachings are wrong - but many are.
And some non-conforming teachings are also wrong.

One of the most beautiful truths that Joseph Smith learned and taught was to seek and embrace truth wherever it's found.
After much effort, ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!!
But there are many truths that are difficult to handle - even painful - but some have been mislead to believe that such pain is the adversary, when it is really simply opposition that is inherent in life. It feels awful to consider you may have been wrong, or been betrayed, but if we don't consider this, we won't learn and do better.

I really like that clip that BOM posted - the interview with Obama - about how important it is to listen and respect other viewpoints - and be open to learning. Often, real truth is not one extreme or the other - but a mix of various factors from both sides. That is why it's important that the church NOT kick out anybody who THINKS or questions. It is important for spiritual progress, that we seek for truth wherever it's found - not just on "lds approved" sources and ways. And it's also important that those of us who have come to realize financial corruption and cult qualities in the church, to still share our testimonies - even if they are very subtle (to be respectful).

[Onsdag]

Nephi didn't (follow the prophet) to the tree of life either. He went off on his own and prayed to know the truth of it.

When I hear the follow the prophet that's what I understand it to mean.

You make the path your own. You don't blindly follow. You have your eyes wide open looking around learning and growing to understand why that's the path.

You listen to the prophet. But on the scale of things. He might be so far ahead of you you can't see him on the path. Or you might be ahead only God knows. Either way our own personal spiritual connection and guide is the most important thing you have to keeping you on the path.

Just a minor correction. I believe that he actually did follow the Prophet to the tree of life:

10. And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.
11. And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.
12. And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.
13. And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.
14. And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.
15. And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit.
16. And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also.

Lehi was the Prophet of God, and he beckoned and called unto his family with a loud voice, and they hearkened and obeyed, and came and partook of that most precious fruit. There is no indication that they used the rod of iron to come to the tree. Nor that they sought guidance directly from God. No, for the scriptures say that they were lost and "stood as if they knew not whither they should go." It was through blindly following a Prophet of God that they came to partake of the fruit of the tree of life.

Now contrast that with the rebellious Laman and Lemuel:

17. And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.
18. And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.

These two rebellious souls did not hearken to the Lord's chose Prophet, but instead turned away from and lost out on the choice blessing of partaking of the fruit. Very interesting and thought-provoking lessons to be learned, considering our current situation.

[samizdat]

Nephi didn't (follow the prophet) to the tree of life either. He went off on his own and prayed to know the truth of it.

When I hear the follow the prophet that's what I understand it to mean.

You make the path your own. You don't blindly follow. You have your eyes wide open looking around learning and growing to understand why that's the path.

You listen to the prophet. But on the scale of things. He might be so far ahead of you you can't see him on the path. Or you might be ahead only God knows. Either way our own personal spiritual connection and guide is the most important thing you have to keeping you on the path.

Just a minor correction. I believe that he actually did follow the Prophet to the tree of life:

10. And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.
11. And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.
12. And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.
13. And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.
14. And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.
15. And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit.
16. And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also.

Lehi was the Prophet of God, and he beckoned and called unto his family with a loud voice, and they hearkened and obeyed, and came and partook of that most precious fruit. There is no indication that they used the rod of iron to come to the tree. Nor that they sought guidance directly from God. No, for the scriptures say that they were lost and "stood as if they knew not whither they should go." It was through blindly following a Prophet of God that they came to partake of the fruit of the tree of life.

Now contrast that with the rebellious Laman and Lemuel:

17. And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.
18. And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.

These two rebellious souls did not hearken to the Lord's chose Prophet, but instead turned away from and lost out on the choice blessing of partaking of the fruit. Very interesting and thought-provoking lessons to be learned, considering our current situation.

One also has to see where "the church" was in Lehi's time.

There were many prophets, Jeremiah among them, that were begging the Church of the time to repent. They were thrown in jail, murdered, or exiled by the populace at the time. In other words the membership of the Church was falling into apostasy (not the leaders of the Church), as they were following more the examples of the earthly leaders than the spiritual leaders.