Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby believer » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:21 pm

This is a great talk.

[MODERATOR EDIT TO INCLUDE TALK REFERRED TO IN THIS THREAD]:

On Sunday we had the best stake conf I've ever attended. The Stake President was the concluding speaker. Below is his talk exactly as he emailed it to me today. Sorry for the length but there was nothing I could cut out of it. It was that good.

Stake Conference General Session Talk: 2/3/13
President De Visser Sandy, Utah
My dear brothers and sisters, it has been a wonderful conference weekend. I have been inspired by those who have shared their stories and testimonies. I have been equally inspired by the music. I have learned that it is not an easy thing to plan a stake conference. Much fasting, prayer, and deliberation go into it and I have felt the spirit of the Lord guide me in selecting our speakers and topics. I express my appreciation to those who have participated. The spirit of the Lord has been with us in abundance, and I pray that it will continue to be with us as I now address you.

Another year has come and gone, but not just any year – it was the year 2012. A year about which much was speculated, predicted, and some would even argue prophesied. And while the most discussed prediction or prophecy – that of the Mayans concerning the end of the world – did not come to pass, I feel and believe that 2012 will still prove to be one of the more significant years in our life time.

Let’s take a moment and look back at a few things that happened in 2012:
- Gaza fired missiles on Jerusalem causing heightened unrest in the Middle East
- The Director of the CIA, a man considered to be of the highest moral integrity, resigned due to improprieties and adultery

- The UN Ambassador was instructed by the White House to cover up what happened in Libya, attempting to minimize the deaths of four Americans who were murdered
- There was an attempt to raise taxes during the worst economic times since the great depression

- Hurricane Sandy, called the “perfect storm” hit the east coast causing great devastation
- Iran became closer to a nuclear weapon
- The use of marijuana was legalized in Washington and Colorado
- Some states legalized same sex marriage

- 23 states began a petition to secede from the nation
- Russia strengthened its coalitions with North Korea and Iran
- Forces aligned to stop school prayer, but allowed the handing out of birth control
- The government used tax dollars to fund abortions

- Examples of violence, gambling, drug misuse, and infidelity were more prevalent than ever
- Hollywood promoted parenthood without marriage
- Education scores of our youth plummeted to their lowest levels ever
- And finally, we were brought to the edge of the fiscal cliff

In my opinion, the first 30 days of 2013 have proven to be the same. In fact, my head is spinning at all of the insanity and craziness that is happening in the world.
Now, I want to make it clear that it is not my intent today to be controversial, political, or even dire. My intent is to state the facts as I see them, as the Stake President, having been moved upon by the Holy Ghost. When I speak from this pulpit as the Stake President, the primary intent of my voice is one of love and compassion, but I also have an obligation to use my voice as a warning when it is necessary. Today is a day when I choose to use it primarily as a voice of warning hoping you will realize and understand that it is in love and compassion for you that I do.

Each of us has our agency and we are free to act for ourselves. We are agents unto ourselves and each of us is free to take what I say as he or she will. You may choose to disagree with me. You may even choose to ignore me, but I have been impressed by the spirit to say what I must say.

Never in my life have I witnessed a more stark difference between good and evil than I did in 2012. Never has there been a greater moral, economic, or political decline in society, than there was in 2012 and over the last few years. These climates combined, were as bad in 2012 as they have ever been in the history of the world. The current moral condition of our world and country reminds me of the condition described in Helaman, chapter 5, verse 2, and I quote:

“For their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening with destruction, for the laws had become corrupted.” End quote.

In 2012 the voice of the people spoke loudly and clearly as it chose:
- Socialism over capitalism
- Entitlements over free enterprise
- Redistribution and regulation over self reliance
Unfortunate as it is, this should not come as a surprise to any of us who have spent the better part of our lives as members of this church. The scriptures and the prophets have warned us for hundreds of years, and have been trying to prepare us for this time. The scriptural and modern-day prophesies we have read and heard throughout our lives are no longer prophesies to us – they are now our living reality.

Let me take a moment and share with you a few of the scriptural and modern-day prophesies and quotes that I find interesting and revealing.
First, on November 9th, 2012 ( just a few months ago) the First Presidency issued the following statement: “We invite Americans everywhere, whatever their political persuasion, to pray for the President, for his administration and the new Congress as they lead us through difficult and turbulent times. May our national leaders reflect the best in wisdom and judgment as they fulfill the great trust afforded to them by the American people.”

The most glaring part of this statement, to me, is the acknowledgement from our prophet and the First Presidency that we are living in difficult and turbulent times.
Now, listen carefully to these two quotes. To me, these quotes are fascinating, and they reflect the ability of our leaders to see and predict the future.

In 1976 (this statement was made over 35 years ago) while serving as a President of the Seventy, Neal A. Maxwell said the following:
“I fear, that, as conditions worsen, many will react to the failures of too much government by calling for even more government. Then there will be more and more lifeboats launched, because fewer and fewer citizens know how to swim. Unlike some pendulums, political pendulums do not swing back automatically; they must be pushed. History is full of instances when people have waited in vain for pendulums to swing back”.

In 1966 (this statement was made over 45 years ago) while serving as an apostle, Howard W. Hunter said this:
“The government will take from the “haves” and give to the “have nots.” [When this happens] Both have lost their freedom. Those who “have,” lost their freedom to give voluntarily of their own free will and in the way they desire. Those who “have not”, lost their freedom because they did not earn what they received. They got “something for nothing,” and they will neither appreciate the gift nor the giver of the gift”.

Now I quote from 2 Timothy chapter 3, verses 1-4:
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God”.

Sound familiar? It does to me, and as the Stake President, I not only see it happening throughout the world, but I also see it happening right here in our stake. These conditions described by Paul concerning the wickedness of the last days, are being realized right before my very eyes. As the Stake President, I see and hear all manner of sin – violence, crime, alcohol and drug abuse, and immorality of every kind. I believe there are not many things left for my eyes to see and my ears to hear. Evil is escalating at an alarming pace even here at home. Just as the Savior prophesied concerning the conditions in the world that would precede his Second Coming: “iniquity does abound, the love of men does wax cold” (JS-Matt. 1:30) and “all things are in commotion; and surely, men’s hearts do fail them, for fear has come upon all people” (D&C 88:91).

I now quote Elder Bednar in a talk he gave one day after the tragic events that occurred only 45 days ago in Connecticut. He said:
“We live in a world that grows increasingly confused and chaotic - ever more evil and dark. Nothing could have emphasized that truth more than the tragic events that occurred yesterday in Connecticut.” With his comments, Elder Bednar also quoted recent comments made by President Packer, who said: “The world is spiraling downward at an ever-quickening pace.” Now, pay close attention to this next sentence brothers and sisters – President Packer said: “I am sorry to tell you that it will not get better.” President Packer goes on to say: “I know of nothing in the history of the Church, or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now. Words of profanity, vulgarity, and blasphemy are heard everywhere. Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, and even accorded legal protection. At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now, they are spread across the world, and they are among us”.

Brothers and Sisters, as I said last year during Ward Conferences – “we are in the count down.” Again, I say to you, that the scriptural and modern-day prophesies we have read and heard all throughout our lives are no longer prophesies to us – they are now our living reality. If there was ever a time in the history of the world for a people to wake up, pay attention, and get it together – now is that time. This is a defining moment for us, and we cannot delay. We need to get our temporal and spiritual houses in order. It is a must. Difficult times are still ahead and we need to be prepared.

In my opinion, the last 5 years have put us on notice, and they should serve as a wake-up call in both temporal and spiritual matters.
All throughout my life I have been counseled by our church leaders to live within my means and get out of debt. In fact, there was no topic talked about more by President Hinckley, during his time as the Prophet, than living within our means and getting out of debt. As I look back on the last 5 years, it is no wonder to me why he did. We experienced the worst economic, political, and spiritual times in the history of our country, and even globally. The words of President Packer during his visit to our stake 4 years ago still ring loudly in my ears when he mentioned this topic and warned us, by saying:

“This time is different. We have not experienced this in the past. This time it is global, and it will be deeper and last longer than anything we have economically and spiritually experienced.”
Today, it is easy for us to reflect upon his words and know that he was right. Many of us would be better served today if we had taken his warning more seriously. For example, from 2008 to 2009 our stake experienced a 150% increase in welfare assistance to its own members. That assistance stayed about the same during 2010 and 2011. In 2012 we saw some improvement, and I am happy to report that we are now only 70% above our pre 2009 level of assistance. While there are some of us who could have done better, all in all, I commend you brothers and sisters. We are one of a few stakes in the entire church that remained a Fast Offering Giver rather than a Fast Offering Receiver during this time – meaning that we were able to meet the temporal needs of our own members and still have a surplus to pass on to the church to assist other stakes. I also want to commend you for following the counsel of your priesthood leader to prayerfully consider a more generous Fast Offering. It is overwhelming to me that during this temporal meltdown you have risen to the occasion and given more generously. I am very pleased to report that over the past 4 years our fast offering contributions have increased by 11%. This is amazing, especially since we now have 1,000 members less in our stake than we did in 2008. So, I thank you brothers and sisters. You are wonderful and I promise the Lord will continue to bless you as you continue to give generously.

Now, while temporal and economic conditions appear to be getting somewhat better, let us not kid ourselves about what is really going on. Any improvement is only temporary, and the conditions we have experienced over the last 5 years will eventually and certainly return, and even get worse. Let us not forget the last 5 years, and let us learn from it. Let us all finally follow the counsel of our prophets to live within our means and get out of debt. It is possible to get out of debt if we live within our means, but it is not if we don’t.

Now, not only is temporal preparedness vital for our mortal existence, but it also sets the stage for us to be spiritually prepared. The most important matter for us to consider right now and always is our spiritual preparedness.

Over the past 4 years, it has been a wonderful exercise for me to call upon the Lord for guidance and direction concerning this stake, and in particular the setting of stake goals. It has been an interesting evolution to witness. Let me share with you part of a statement we prepared for all of us this year (a copy of which can be obtained from your bishop):

“As the Stake Presidency discussed, pondered, and prayed about our stake goals for 2013, we were impressed by the feeling that goals should be a matter of focus and commitment at a personal level.
In conjunction with this direction, we encourage each individual member to set their own goal based on the following question:

What goal can I make that will bring me closer to the Savior?
Let me repeat:
We encourage each individual member to set their own goal based on the following question:
What goal can I make that will bring me closer to the Savior?

We trust that as you prayerfully consider and ponder this question, it will be clear to you what your goal should be. We also testify that your personal commitment and discipline to fulfill this goal will indeed bring you closer to the Savior and will give you spiritual strength to remain firm and steadfast in the gospel regardless of the circumstances.

We are impressed to share with you one goal you might consider, as you ponder the question: What goal can I make that will bring me closer to the Savior?
Spend time each day reading and studying the Book of Mormon.

Two others which are not in the statement but which I would like to also suggest are:
1) Don’t let a day go by in your life when you do not humbly and sincerely kneel before God to thank Him for your blessings and plead with Him to give you the spiritual strength to meet the challenges which are coming.

2) Perform a spiritual self examination. Examine every aspect of your life. Identify those things for which you need to repent and then do it. Simply put, focus on your own personal worthiness.
In the end, the only things that will matter will be our personal worthiness and our relationships, especially the one we have with the Savior.

Brothers and Sisters, President Packer was absolutely right when he said: “I am sorry to tell you that it will not get better.” As difficult as it may be to embrace, it is simply God’s plan. The moral, economic, and political conditions of the world will not, overall, get better. You and I were held back for this special time to prepare the earth for the return of the Savior. I believe many within the sound of my voice will be part of, and witnesses to, all of the events that will transpire prior to the return of the Savior. This will require each of us to be temporally and spiritually stronger than we are currently.

In closing let me share a quote from Heber C. Kimball:
“The time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to the extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint, from the face of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brothers and sisters, look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great sifting time, and many will fall; for I say unto you there is a test, a TEST, a TEST is coming, and who will be able to stand?

This church and each member of it has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with victory. To meet the difficulties that are coming, it will be necessary for you to be temporally and spiritually prepared, and have a knowledge of the truth of this work for yourselves. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess these things will fall.”

Brothers and sisters, the test has come. It is now upon us. No man or woman will be able to endure what is happening now, or what is ahead, if we are not temporally and spiritually prepared. If you are not, you will not stand.

I love you brothers and sisters. I testify to you that I speak the truth. I have a personal witness of the Savior and I know that He lives. He is the Son of Almighty God. He will return in glory and He will sustain us through the difficult times ahead if we do our part and are temporally and spiritually prepared. And, I say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Rensai » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:53 pm

Excellent. :ymapplause:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?

- Thomas Jefferson, 1781
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:58 pm

This talk is making the rounds in these parts now, and as one might expect there is a number of members who want to believe it is bogus and declare it so. They just cannot or will not believe a stake president would give such a talk, and/or they do not want that message to be true. I have said that bogus or not, the message itself is still true and accurate.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby BrianM » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:00 am

lundbaek wrote:This talk is making the rounds in these parts now, and as one might expect there is a number of members who want to believe it is bogus and declare it so. They just cannot or will not believe a stake president would give such a talk, and/or they do not want that message to be true. I have said that bogus or not, the message itself is still true and accurate.


I'm surprised at how many people are searching for this talk right now (originally posted in a different thread "Best Stake Conference I Ever Attended"). It has been making the rounds via email. Interesting..
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:08 am

I have lost track of who initially posted this talk, but to whomever, thank you very much. Reactions to it are certainly varied.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby jeanpierre » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:00 pm

I have excerpted out the statements which seem to me to best describe our awful situation. Notice that there is no instruction about correcting the awful situation; only advice on how to prepare ourselves and our families to cope with worsening conditions. Nothing said about supporting the constitution and freedom. Nothing about opposing the events and persons causing the deterioration of the moral, economic, and political conditions of the world.

"I now quote Elder Bednar in a talk he gave one day after the tragic events that occurred only 45 days ago in Connecticut. He said:
“We live in a world that grows increasingly confused and chaotic - ever more evil and dark. Nothing could have emphasized that truth more than the tragic events that occurred yesterday in Connecticut.” With his comments, Elder Bednar also quoted recent comments made by President Packer, who said: “The world is spiraling downward at an ever-quickening pace.” Now, pay close attention to this next sentence brothers and sisters – President Packer said: “I am sorry to tell you that it will not get better.” President Packer goes on to say: “I know of nothing in the history of the Church, or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now. Words of profanity, vulgarity, and blasphemy are heard everywhere. Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, and even accorded legal protection. At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now, they are spread across the world, and they are among us”.

"Brothers and Sisters, as I said last year during Ward Conferences – “we are in the count down.” Again, I say to you, that the scriptural and modern-day prophesies we have read and heard all throughout our lives are no longer prophesies to us – they are now our living reality. If there was ever a time in the history of the world for a people to wake up, pay attention, and get it together – now is that time. This is a defining moment for us, and we cannot delay. We need to get our temporal and spiritual houses in order. It is a must. Difficult times are still ahead and we need to be prepared.

"In my opinion, the last 5 years have put us on notice, and they should serve as a wake-up call in both temporal and spiritual matters.
All throughout my life I have been counseled by our church leaders to live within my means and get out of debt. In fact, there was no topic talked about more by President Hinckley, during his time as the Prophet, than living within our means and getting out of debt. As I look back on the last 5 years, it is no wonder to me why he did. We experienced the worst economic, political, and spiritual times in the history of our country, and even globally. The words of President Packer during his visit to our stake 4 years ago still ring loudly in my ears when he mentioned this topic and warned us, by saying:

“This time is different. We have not experienced this in the past. This time it is global, and it will be deeper and last longer than anything we have economically and spiritually experienced.”

"Brothers and Sisters, President Packer was absolutely right when he said: “I am sorry to tell you that it will not get better.” As difficult as it may be to embrace, it is simply God’s plan. The moral, economic, and political conditions of the world will not, overall, get better. You and I were held back for this special time to prepare the earth for the return of the Savior. I believe many within the sound of my voice will be part of, and witnesses to, all of the events that will transpire prior to the return of the Savior. This will require each of us to be temporally and spiritually stronger than we are currently."
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby awar_e » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:03 pm

lundbaek wrote:This talk is making the rounds in these parts now, and as one might expect there is a number of members who want to believe it is bogus and declare it so. They just cannot or will not believe a stake president would give such a talk, and/or they do not want that message to be true. I have said that bogus or not, the message itself is still true and accurate.


CORRECT> It matters not so much the source of truth as the Holy Ghost can witness the validity. Clamoring for more proof would place us in the "needing to be commanded in all things" group.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby pjbrownie » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:31 pm

I know we're supposed to get out of debt. This is no easy assignment, other than for some, you can chip at it day by day. Others have windfall blessings. I see debt as the devil that drags us down through the beginning of this process, but once it comes full swing, I wonder about the consequences. Will we have debtors prisons? What about for home mortgages, student loans, and the like? I see getting out of debt as the solution to help prepare more easily for the bottom falling out, but I see once the bottom falls out, we're all pretty much in the same boat, except for those that prepared.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby umno » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:57 am

Never has there been a greater moral, economic, or political decline in society, than there was in 2012 and over the last few years. These climates combined, were as bad in 2012 as they have ever been in the history of the world.


What a heap of uninformed nonsense. Much of this sort of talk is demonstrably false by the best available evidence on metrics like rates of violent crime, rates of hunger and starvation, rates of death and injury from war, etc., as a proportion of the world's population. Many religious people need to believe that this time in world history is really, really bad, because that's what their religious texts say. But the data on things like rates of violent crime as a proportion of the population show, rather, a clear decline over time. There are ups and downs along the way, but the trend on things like that is clear - down. But, hey, people like him are adept at believing against the best available evidence in certain circumstances.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Davidg » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:45 pm

Can anyone verify the authenticity of this transcript? Its rather unique given that it mentions a lot of government related events--something that the church usually avoids in order to keep from bringing to bear any negative reaction from powerful forces in government which sometimes leads to governments interfering with the mission of the church.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Expat Mormon » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:32 pm

I personally doubt a Stake President made all these remarks. The notes are too specific. Our church specifically prohibits scribing conferences outside General Conference. Whoever published these notes did so in direct violation of Church policy.

If he did make all of them, he has mixed religion and politics in such as way as to clearly align the Church with US Conservative politics. He would have done so in direct violation of well-published Church policy of political neutrality and would be subject to censure. The global and national issues here are not the concern of a leader of a number of local wards in South Salt Lake County. Personal righteousness (which is what we can all reasonably control) is something of legitimate concern for a local leader. That's what I've always heard from local leaders in the LDS Church.

We need to stop listening to the increasingly loud voices who want us to be afraid. Afraid so we will keep listening to their TV and radio programs. Keep buying their gold bullion and dish soap.

We never will convince others who don't agree with us by posting these kinds of messages. My biggest fear is we stop finding the common good in others which is so vital for us to do as missionaries. It is better for us to appreciate that others love their country as much as we do. To appreciate the life of public service others give, even when they are not of our political persuasion. Not that all are perfect, but to not stereotype all as bad who disagree with our politics.

A few other very powerful excerpts to contemplate from the talk of Elder Maxwell, cited in this e-mail:

Public service has also helped me to appreciate my many non-LDS friends, whom I have found, on the whole, to be caring and thoughtful individuals. They are able to understand when we must differ without jeopardizing what we have in common, which is so very much.

Ten years of interviewing on a television program on KUED increased my respect and appreciation for the lives of individuals whom I got to know a little bit more about, other than in their formal roles of U.S. senators, presidential candidates, U.S. Supreme Court justices, or prophets. The small talk of great men and women is worthwhile. We discover so many wonders when walking carefully through another's garden, not by crashing into it with a Mack truck. Tenderness is usually better than trapping, so far as learning about another is concerned. These insights have given me pause when I see so much of modern journalism searching for sensation—a search which can be addictive to journalists as well as to audiences.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby BrianM » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:38 pm

It's real. I've heard from forum members that either are currently members of that stake or were members of that stake that it is real.
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby BrianM » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:01 pm

That talk has gone viral and is making rounds via email and elsewhere.
All my opinions are tentative pending further data...

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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Expat Mormon » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:18 pm

Here's where I have a major problem about the mix of politics and religion:

In 2012 the voice of the people spoke loudly and clearly as it chose:
- Socialism over capitalism
- Entitlements over free enterprise
- Redistribution and regulation over self reliance

Voice of which people?

Do elections in the US speak for what happens all over the globe? What an oversimplified view of the world!! I know plenty of voters who chose Obama over Romney who are pro capitalism - they just didn't think Romney was the right guy.

What do you consider "socialism"? Does socialism = evil? There ARE good LDS members who are Democrats who would take exception to this

There are good LDS who vote socialist in some countries who would take exception with our characterization of their politics as evil. Don't
forget we are a worldwide church and are not owned by one party in one country!!

There are many arguments that there are many good people needing assistance who can't get it now. For example, adoption and foster care programs have seen their budgets cut. We severely underinvest in our infrastructure in this country (vs. Japan or Europe). At the same time, we create loopholes for our favorite constituents - both Republican and Democrat. Why do NFL owners need a tax break for their teams? Why do some large businesses (e.g. GE) need a tax break?
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Gad » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:48 pm

BrianM wrote:That talk has gone viral and is making rounds via email and elsewhere.

We should role out the welcome mat to our SEO church service missionaries.
"[John 3:17] says Jesus didn't come to condemn us. If anybody had a right to condemn someone, it would be the son of God. If he didn't do it, then hey, we definitely are not qualified to do it." - Si Robertson
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:29 pm

I challenge those who would try to convince us that President Devisser did not say what he was reported to have said to call him and ask for themselves at (801) 572-8836.

In July 2009 I gave a talk on the responsibility of LDSs to the US Constitution in a sacrament meeting that I was later asked to share via email and which made the rounds and got me a number of phone calls and emails, including a phone call from Hawaii and an email from England. Some got upset over the content. Tuff! I calls 'em as I sees 'em with no apologies, and I seems President Devisser does the same.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby ascaphus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:20 am

He has been e-mailed twice and asked to verify this was a talk he gave and he has not responded. If he calls 'em as he sees 'em, let him fess up.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby ascaphus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:25 pm

He has been called and admitted to giving the talk.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby HeirofNumenor » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:50 pm

Ben, I'm glad your avatar is Skywalker, NOT Obama :p
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby dauser » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:09 pm

Hoping the talk is legit.

The wicked do not go to stake conferences, most members are not ready for truth spelled out over the loud speaker.

Perhaps his stake was ready for such a talk...not for public consumption.

Warning the wicked is not easy, nor popular.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:39 pm

I am aware of a great many Church members who are definitely not wicked as I understand the word "wicked", but who cannot cope with what the Lord and His prophets and apostles have told us about the US Constitution and the attacks against it and our freedoms. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth. But that alone does not qualify anyone for the "wicked" label. In spite of the hellfire and brimstone threats I have heard and read pertaining to members who neglect those responsibilities, I don't envision them shoveling coal down in the eternal boiler room for that neglect alone. But then as I reread this: http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/images/fp_1941.pdf I have to wonder.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby uglypitbull » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:52 pm

Wow Lundy! Thanks for sharing that link......if that doesnt spell it out, I dont know what does.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby TZONE » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:56 pm

What do you consider "socialism"? Does socialism = evil? There ARE good LDS members who are Democrats who would take exception to this


Yes it is. Socialsim is all about free things, dependence, doing things for nothing. Such as the current welfare system of the government. That is the exact opposite of the church's self reliance stance. It has been quoted in General Conference that socialism is an evil trait. There are different variations of it. It does not mean the individual is evil the government part is. There are many good LDS ones who do believe in it. There are many (or ALL) good LDS who err in many doctrines in all sides (the left or the far right). They are still good people and that is life.

Here are few sources and many many more just in the last few years even.

Joseph Smith

“I attended a second lecture on Socialism, by Mr. Finch; and after he got through, I made a few remarks… I said I did not believe the doctrine.” (History of the Church 6:33)

Heber J. Grant

“We again warn our people in America of the constantly increasing threat against our inspired Constitution and our free institutions set up under it. The same political tenets and philosophies that have brought war and terror in other parts of the world are at work amongst us in America…

“… Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises of the gospel plan… Latter-day Saints cannot be true to their faith and lend aid, encouragement, or sympathy to any of these false philosophies. They will prove snares to their feet.” (Grant and McKay 273, 343)

David O. McKay

“Church members are at perfect liberty to act according to their own consciences in the matter of safeguarding our way of life. They are, of course, encouraged to honor the highest standards of the gospel and to work to preserve their own freedoms. They are free to participate in non-church meetings that are held to warn people of the threat of Communism or any other theory or principle that will deprive us of our free agency or individual liberties vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States.” (”Statement Concerning the Position of the Church on Communism” 477)

First Presidency 1941 ( Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., David O. McKay )

“We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from that underlying spirit common to Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution

“As we see it, there is no way in which we can, to use your own words, “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light,” except we shall turn away from our present course and resume the normal course along which this great country traveled to its present high eminence of prosperity, of culture, of universal education, and of the peace and contentment which we enjoyed prior to the inauguration of the “New Deal”. (1932-3)

“These things are not matters of partisan politics with us. We care nothing as Church leaders about partisan politics as such, nor about the dominance of one party or the other. We grant to every man the right to vote as he wishes, and we would not control his vote even if we could. But we do reserve to ourselves the right to tell our people what we think is right regarding politics as affecting the fundamentals of our government system, to warn them of the dangers that lie under the present course, and to try to persuade them that their peace, their happiness, and their security do not lie along the path of the present trends of government.

“Truly, we do not believe that—again to quote your own words—we can “preserve and perpetuate our freedom—freedom to govern ourselves, freedom of speech, and freedom to worship God according to our own light” unless we turn squarely about and return to the old-time virtues, and re-enthrone our liberties and free institutions.” (A Letter to the Treasury from the LDS First Presidency in 1941 )

Ezra Taft Benson

No true Latter-day Saint can be a Communist or a Socialist because Communist principles run counter to the revealed word of God and to the Constitution of this land which was established by men whom the God of Heaven raised up unto that very purpose [D&C 101:80].” (”A Four-Fold Hope” 11)

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. (See Conference Report, Apr 1963, pp. 112-13.) Have we read these words from God’s mouthpiece and pondered on them?” (”Be Not Deceived” 1064; compare GFC 340)

Let us not be deceived in the sifting days ahead. Let us rally together on principle behind the prophet as guided by the promptings of the Spirit. We should continue to speak out for freedom and against socialism and communism. We should continue to come to the aid of patriots, programs, and organizations that are trying to save our Constitution through every legal and moral means possible.” (”Be Not Deceived” 1065; compare GFC 342)

“We must be righteous and moral. We must live the gospel principles—all of them. We have no right to expect a higher degree of morality from those who represent us than what we ourselves are. In the final analysis, people generally get the kind of government they deserve. To live a higher law means we will not seek to receive what we have not earned by our own labor. It means we will remember that government owes us nothing. It means we will keep the laws of the land. It means we will look to God as our Lawgiver and the Source of our liberty.” (CHB 28-31)

I fear for the future when I realize that for some thirty years our once-free institutions, political, economic, educational and social, have been drifting into the hands of those who favor the Welfare State, and who would “centralize all power in the hands of the political apparatus in Washington. This enhancement of political power at the expense of individual rights, so often disguised as ‘democracy’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘civil rights,’ is ’socialism,’ no matter what name tag it bears…

I fear for the future when I see an affluent but complacent citizenry paying little or no attention to these and many other socialistic trends in America.

“Dr. V. Orval Watts, noted political economist, has described this socialist system which I fear-and I have but suggested a very few evidences. Here are his words: ‘Socialism… is the theory and practice of coercive collectivism. It is the evil fruit of greed for other men’s possessions and greed for control over other men’s labor.’” (Elder Ezra Taft Benson December 10 1963. A Race Against Time.)

We have moved a long way – and are now moving further and more rapidly down the soul-destroying road of socialism. The evidence is clear – shockingly clear for all to see…

Now we should all be opposed to Socialistic-Communism, for it is our mortal and spiritual enemy – the greatest evil in the world today. But the reason many liberals don’t want the American people to form study groups to really understand and than fight Socialistic-Communism is that once the American people get the facts they will begin to realize that much of what these liberals advocate is actually helping the enemy.

The liberals hope you’ll believe them when they tell you how anti-Communist they are. But they become alarmed if you really inform yourself on the subject of Socialistic-Communism. For after you inform yourself you might begin to study the liberal voting record. And this study would show you how much the liberals are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and how much the liberals are actually leading America towards Socialism itself.

For Communism is just another form of socialism, as is fascism. So now you can see the picture. These liberals want you to know how much they are doing for you – with your tax money of course. But they don’t want you to realize that the path they are pursuing is socialistic, and that socialism is the same as communism in its ultimate effect on our liberties. When you point this out they want to shut you up – they accuse you of maligning them, of casting aspersions, of being political. No matter whether they label their bottle as liberalism, progressivism, or social reform – I know the contents of the bottle is poison to this Republic and I’m going to call it poison.” (Ezra Taft Benson. Stand Up For Freedom. Assembly Hall at Temple Square, Feb 11, 1966. Given to The Utah Forum for the American Idea)
Last edited by TZONE on Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby Cowboy » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:58 pm

Perfect talk, perfect venue, perfect timing.
Of course the raving liberals are offended, but they will be the first to leave the Church when the SHTF.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby ascaphus » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:02 am

lundbaek wrote:I am aware of a great many Church members who are definitely not wicked as I understand the word "wicked", but who cannot cope with what the Lord and His prophets and apostles have told us about the US Constitution and the attacks against it and our freedoms. Not only have they ignored the admonitions in their scriptures and from their prophets and apostles to study, uphold, and abide by the principles of the US Constitution, but they have also largely ignored the warnings about secret combinations among them striving to gain control over their government and steal their wealth. But that alone does not qualify anyone for the "wicked" label. In spite of the hellfire and brimstone threats I have heard and read pertaining to members who neglect those responsibilities, I don't envision them shoveling coal down in the eternal boiler room for that neglect alone. But then as I reread this: http://www.connorboyack.com/blog/images/fp_1941.pdf I have to wonder.



I am honestly trying to understand what you get from this document. Are you suggesting that the changing attitude of the church toward promoting war bonds after Pearl Harbor is some sort of evidence of secret combinations?
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:23 pm

No, I am not suggesting that the changing attitude of the church toward promoting war bonds after Pearl Harbor is some sort of evidence of secret combinations. I am impressed with statements in that letter that evidence a very serious view on parts of Presidents Grant, Clark, and McKay toward neglect on the part of Church members of the US Constitution.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby LateOutOfBed » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:34 pm

lundbaek wrote:No, I am not suggesting that the changing attitude of the church toward promoting war bonds after Pearl Harbor is some sort of evidence of secret combinations. I am impressed with statements in that letter that evidence a very serious view on parts of Presidents Grant, Clark, and McKay toward neglect on the part of Church members of the US Constitution.


Thanks for the link Lund! Although, now I may have to research the "Deseret News" article that is referenced at the end that is evidently contrary to that which is in the letter. (Of course I trust that letter from the First Presidency more) Would be an interesting read.

-- Geoff
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby buffalo_girl » Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:59 pm

There's nothing like an 'attack' on one's country - either allowed or actually engineered - by those who manipulate us into these wars to UNITE everyone behind so-called patriotism.

The Federal Reserve had to keep Congress coming to the slop trough by creating another global conflict (WWII)... just as it does today.

Their (power elite) wars keep them in the business of making money from every possible position on the chess board. Sweet deal.

Stupid Congress.

"Isolationist attitude", indeed!

By all means, read the document posted here by Lundbaek. It must be read in its entirety.
Last edited by buffalo_girl on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby lundbaek » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:36 pm

That letter of the 1941 First Presidency is a very enlightening read and I highly reccomend reading the whole letter stem to stern. Other recorded statements made during that era by Presidents Grant, Clark, and McKay should also leave little doubt about their concern about the failure of members to stand fast by the Constitution.
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Re: Hidden Valley Stake Pres. De Visser talk

Postby mirkwood » Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:29 am

Did you call him and verify it yourself lundbaek?
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