Conspiracy Theory and Masons and Mormons

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

I am not a Mason, but have been a researcher of all things Masonic for a very long time. A few times I considered becoming one, but that's another story.
I happened to be listening to a Cutting Through the Matrix podcast with Alan Watt today. And he basically said that Romney was untrustworthy, because he is a Mormon. And its not because of the Mormonism religion he was saying this, but because "all Mormons" are Masons, because we take Masonic oaths in the temple. Needless to say, I was disappointed by Alan Watt, who is usually really reasonable and generally on the right track.

Don't get me wrong. Romney is not the person I'm going to vote for, because he is not a constitutionalist.

But, to tell you the truth, I consider myself a patriot, but I've just about had it with the stuff coming out of some corners of the patriot movement about Masonry, because it is all so naive and unresearched, especially this latest stuff. The Mormon Church is not in league with Masonry at its highest levels. The Mormon Church has not had anything to do with Masonry for 150 years. Various apologists will give you their reasons for the Masonic influences in the temple ceremony. But just because someone practices a form of Masonic rites does not make them in league with Masonry.

Furthermore, in my researches, Masonry is not the boogey-man that everyone makes it out to be in conspiracy theory. But here are the facts from the point of view of critical thinking, rather than being bamboozled by conspiracy theory:
(1) Masonry is not a monolithic organization.
(2) There are many Masonic organizations that have nothing to do with one another.
(3) There was a Grand Schism in Masonry about the turn of last century between the Grand Orient (Grand Lodge) of France and the Grand Lodge of England. If it was true that Masonry was a monolithic conspiracy, there would be no such schism. This schism was over the allowance of women in Freemasonry, as well as overe the issue of whether a Mason had to believe in God or not. This created two major strains of Masonry: (1) Continental Masonry (some of which is co-Masonic, which means that they allow women in their lodges, or also that they allow lodges of women only) that looks to the Grand Orient of France as its mother lodge so to speak, and (2) the regular mainline Masonry (the "masculine" lodges, allowing only men) that is associated with the US Grand Lodges, that looks to the Grand Lodge of England as its mother lodge. Continental and co-Masonry has no affilation with mainline US Lodges.
(4) Each Masonic geographical jurisdiction is presided over by a "Grand Lodge," each of which is autonomous. The Grand Lodges cannot tell each other what to do. They can only decide if they are "in amity" (ie affilated with or recognized by) each other, where the members of one Grand Lodge can meet with or have association with the members of the other Grand Lodge jurisdiction. If a Grand Lodge ceases to recognize another, then the members are basically unable to affiliate with one another without facing possible sanctions or excommunication.
(5) Many Grand Lodges are not recognized by the mainline Grand Lodges, especially what are called Prince Hall Masonic Lodges that mostly have African American members. Many US Grand Lodges view Prince Hall Masons as "clandestine" or "irregular" (ie apostate or off base), but this is basically a vestige of a racist past in Masonry, where former slaves and other African Americans who were made Masons created their own lodges, distinct from the white lodges.
(6) There are many Masonic organizations that are considered "clandestine" or "irregular" by the mainline Masonic lodges. In fact, the Continental Masonry is viewed as "irregular" by US Lodges. But in reality, this is like the Catholics telling the Greek Orthodox that they are apostate, when the Eastern Orthodox have just as much claim to being "original Catholic" that the western Catholics do. In reality, these groups have evolved apart, but are just as "real" as any other. Some have been "excommunicated" by other Masons, so to speak, because of some fundamental disagreement, but then they go to try to affilate with other like-minded Masonic Organizations (such as the Idaho "Praxis" lodge that now affiliates with co-Masonic/Continental lodges, when it was "excommunicated" from regular US Masonry). Some are self-created, self-identifying Masonic organizations, without having come out of other Masonic organizations orginally, that seek recognition by other Masonic organizations, but that is another issue altogether.
(7) Just because secret combinations such as the Klu Klux Klan and the Illuminati originated in Masonic lodges doesn't make the rest guilty of conspiracy by association. There will always be evil and conspiring men in among any group of people. Just because Albert Pike and Alister Crowley were devil worshippers and occultists has nothing to do with the rest of Masonry. Masonry in itself has nothing to do with the occult.
(8) It is true that the New World Order has Masonic origins because it coalesced from the Illuminati and the Theosophical co-Masonic individuals that were the followers of Blavatsky. But once again, co-Masonry has been villified for this, when regular co-Masonry has nothing to do with the Blavatsky-ites. It is the Blavatsky-ite Theosophical doctrines in the NWO that are behind the Maitreya and Share International.

Just because Cain became Master Mahan, being initiated in a corruption of temple ceremony rites doesn't reflect on true temple ceremony rites or true temples.
Just because Gadiantons use corruptions of temple rites has nothing to do with true temple rites.
Just because Wiccans use modified Masonic rites doesn't mean that regular Masons are Wiccans.
Just because FLDS are "Mormons" in some ways doesn't make them LDS, or have anything to do with the LDS.

In other words, this all comes down to the classic fallacious thinking that just because there are black horses doesn't make all horses black.

Certainly, no patriot would deny that there is a "Masonic" conspiracy called the New World Order. But only foolish thinking leads to the idea that therefore all Masonic organizations or all Masons are part of a conspiracy. And certainly, just because Mormonism is Masonic because of Temple rites (in the sense that it was influenced by it), Mormonism has nothing to do with Masonry, nor does it have anything to do with the New World Order.

I just get fed up by this kind of stuff, so I thought I'd say something about it.

Ed Goble

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Sounds reasonable to me!

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

The Bavarian Illuminati infiltrated masonry during the birth of our nation. It was targeted because it was seen as a way to conceal themselves amongst high profile power players in all aspects of American affairs. George Washington wrote about his concerns with the Illuminati digging in with the masonic groups and anyone can go look those writings up for themselves. Perhaps I'll post it later.

[BrianM]

You might be interested in this "Mormons and Masons" podcast - addressed from a few different perspectives, including an interview with a life-long Mormon-Mason (who happens to also be a member of ldsff)

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/mormons-and-masons/

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

This documentary on secret societies does a fairly good job with examining the difference between Illuminati and Masons. While it almost sounds like PR for the Masons it treats the Illuminati and groups like the Bilderbergs with no such compassion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnaBwPu9wRA

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

Where is the YouTube for the podcast displayed?

[karend77captain of 100]

A great-great relative (not a Mormon) in the 1800's was the Grand Master Mason of a Lodge back east. He was an amazing man, who was a leader in his field and very big in serving others. No conspiracy theories with him....a great patriot. I have met folks who were a mason first and joined the church. When they went to the temple it all made sense to them and Masonry prepared them to be a great Latter-day Saint. None of them were involved in any kind of secret combination, but to them the Masonic lodge was a place of reverence, refuge, service, patriotism.

[davedancaptain of 1,000]

LDS do not take Masonic oaths.

The similarity between Masonic ritual and lds temple ritual is in the teaching style only. It's like saying a PowerPoint presentation on Art History is the same as a PowerPoint on Organic Chemistry by only focusing on the monotone speaker at the front of the room, a laser pointer, and annoying slide transitions.

Masons and other secret societies and fraternities are corrupt because of the following oath:

Members often swear to never cause harm to a brother and always aid a brother of the order. This is what results in a good ol boys system.

Lds make no such covenants. We covenant to keep the commandments and consecrate ourselves to God and his church. Since the US constitution is inspired by God, it is part of our religion.

[ldsfireguycaptain of 100]

LDS do not take Masonic oaths.

The similarity between Masonic ritual and lds temple ritual is in the teaching style only. It's like saying a PowerPoint presentation on Art History is the same as a PowerPoint on Organic Chemistry by only focusing on the monotone speaker at the front of the room, a laser pointer, and annoying slide transitions.

davedan,

I would say that Masons take LDS temple oaths - or rather that their ceremonies are remote descendants of the original temple ceremonies revealed to the family of Adam. The Masons have a remnant of truth in their ceremony - thus the limited similarity to the true ceremony of the temple.

They are not alone in this - Wiccans, Theosophists, Luciferians in general, and Satanists often practice a mockery of the temple ceremony, even complete with the "penalties" which are no longer actively symbolized in the true temple ceremony.

My guess is that there are others in the world who probably practice ceremonies or rituals which are remotely derived from the original temple ceremonies also, possibly some Jewish sect that I am not aware of, or some sect among one of the lost tribe descendants in Africa or Asia.

So, I would say that the relationship is more than just a teaching style ... the ancestors of all these groups (Masons, Occultists, etc...) at one time all received the true temple ceremony. What remains today is some remnant thereof, which in my belief only serves to reinforce the truth of the temple's great and common antiquity.

[karend77captain of 100]

LDS do not take Masonic oaths.

The similarity between Masonic ritual and lds temple ritual is in the teaching style only. It's like saying a PowerPoint presentation on Art History is the same as a PowerPoint on Organic Chemistry by only focusing on the monotone speaker at the front of the room, a laser pointer, and annoying slide transitions.

davedan,

I would say that Masons take LDS temple oaths - or rather that their ceremonies are remote descendants of the original temple ceremonies revealed to the family of Adam. The Masons have a remnant of truth in their ceremony - thus the limited similarity to the true ceremony of the temple.

They are not alone in this - Wiccans, Theosophists, Luciferians in general, and Satanists often practice a mockery of the temple ceremony, even complete with the "penalties" which are no longer actively symbolized in the true temple ceremony.

My guess is that there are others in the world who probably practice ceremonies or rituals which are remotely derived from the original temple ceremonies also, possibly some Jewish sect that I am not aware of, or some sect among one of the lost tribe descendants in Africa or Asia.

So, I would say that the relationship is more than just a teaching style ... the ancestors of all these groups (Masons, Occultists, etc...) at one time all received the true temple ceremony. What remains today is some remnant thereof, which in my belief only serves to reinforce the truth of the temple's great and common antiquity.

This is a perfect explanation, as my friend described it too,who had been a Mason.

[davedancaptain of 1,000]

I am not disagreeing with your point about ancient origins. But if you understand LDS temple ritual vs Masonic/Wiccan/Theos ect you should understand that their meaning (thus their content) is totally different.

Some of the symbolism and ritual may appear similar. But the meaning of those symbols, and the ritual are totally different. The content of what is plainly taught is all together different. And the covenants made are nothing like each other.

LDS ritual is Christ centered and righteousness centered. LDS covenant to keep the commandments of the LORD Jehovah, we consecrate ourselves to God. Joseph Smith plainly taught many times in the Doctrine and Covenants that the US Constitution is given by God. Therefore all LDS, especially in the US are consecrated to protecting and defending the US Constitution and Constitutional government. That said, LDS believe we should be subject to, honor and sustain all forms of government especially of they protect religious freedom.

It's not a bad argument to say Masons stole their ritual and corrupted it, and the LDS are taking it back and restoring it. But I am just making the point that wgime thete may be a few similar symbolAthens ritualistic similarities; the oaths, meaning and content are totally totally different.

What Joseph Smith was impressed about Masonic ritual in addition to its ancient hebrew temple origin was that it could teach illiterate and educated people very important abstract principles.

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

LDS do not take Masonic oaths.

The similarity between Masonic ritual and lds temple ritual is in the teaching style only. It's like saying a PowerPoint presentation on Art History is the same as a PowerPoint on Organic Chemistry by only focusing on the monotone speaker at the front of the room, a laser pointer, and annoying slide transitions.

Masons and other secret societies and fraternities are corrupt because of the following oath:

Members often swear to never cause harm to a brother and always aid a brother of the order. This is what results in a good ol boys system.

Lds make no such covenants. We covenant to keep the commandments and consecrate ourselves to God and his church. Since the US constitution is inspired by God, it is part of our religion.

In calling our oaths Masonic oaths, I don't mean to say that LDS make "good ol boys" oaths. That is true that we do not. I mean to say that either LDS got the "form" of their oaths and practices from Masons, or that Masons got their oaths/forms from ancient former day saints or both. I'm all good with any of those explanations. They all work, and all bet there is truth in all of them. I'm saying that various apologists/scholars give various explanations for why the similarities exist. Your explanation is one of those classic explanations. Nothing is wrong with that, and I mostly agree with you. I think however that the facts are not all known, and the issue is unsettled. I happen to think that Joseph Smith appropriated stuff directly from Masonry precisely because it was appropriate and servicable in that form in the same way other versions of endowments are servicable to work in their intended functions, such as what we have today, that is dramatically different from the days of Nauvoo. In other words, he put the stuff from Masonry back in proper context, when in Masonry, it was taken out of its original context and given a new context. I happen to think that the ancient Christians appropriated pagan rites for their Endowments just as much, precisely because of the ancient origins and servicability of the forms of those systems that went back to the days of Adam and Noah and Abraham.

Ed Goble